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  • Old Players versus New Players (PPvPP) 5 1
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Offline xS.Ryoji

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Old Players versus New Players (PPvPP)
« on: July 14, 2013, 08:55:00 PM »
I just wanted to start a discussion about a topic that gets brought up from time to time, so I decided to start by posting my arguments for what I believe. This only relates to PPvPP, because that's what I play and I'm not going to debate this in regards to 1v1s when I'm not qualified to do so.

I want to start by saying that I have respect for the old players who I learned from and created a lot of the strategies that led to where PP is today. Fact is though, what I’m about to say would be offensive to those guys, even though I don’t mean it to be. To start, if you were to take top players in their prime from before 2009 and have them go against players now, it would not be close. While strategy is a big part of this, it’s mostly about speed. Older players didn’t play the same style that required the speed that top players have now. There would be a lot of growing pains for an older player because they would have to push themselves to go fast enough to micro and macro like current players are capable of.

One of the things that people cite when they talk about how good past players were is drop and mass times. This is a bad comparison to make, because a player skill has nothing to do with their drop and mass times in absolute terms. If you want to use drop and mass times as a measurement of skill (which it is one of many), then you need to look at it relatively amongst the players in a given game. By 2008/2009 players couldn’t just 4 gate and expect to be dominant like players in the past. Old players had such fast drops and masses because there was much less fighting throughout the game and faster nex times in general. Slower nex times is obviously going to result in less resources and less ability to be able to mass and tech quickly. The constant fighting in the middle means that players have to spend more money on replacing dying units, rather than building 1 army and their tech. This is why you see players maxing out with drops in 8 minutes in some old replays. If you let a player from today play that same style, they will be just as, if not faster than the old school players.

Many people hype up old players because they played in a time that was “competitive.” While it is true that they played against many other players of similar skill, I don’t think that’s the only aspect of something being “competitive.” The fact remains that players now are better, and if you took a top PP team now and had them play in FGT 2, they would be far and away the best team. The overall skill of players now is greater. Even if there are less people now, it requires more skill to beat a top player today.

I’m not trying to say that old players couldn’t learn/adapt and compete now, but not all of them would be able to. There was 1 particular old school player who played up until about 2008. His ability to macro was fantastic, but his micro was flat out bad and he refused to adapt to the new styles. Even before the top players reached their apex in terms of speed in 2009 it was obvious that this player was having issues keeping up.

If you have an actual opinion about this topic please post so we can discuss it. I'll also answer clarifying questions about anything in case something didn't make sense.

Offline koN

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Re: Old Players versus New Players (PPvPP)
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2013, 10:35:14 PM »
Good discussion. In a sense I agree with what you said that the game is a lot faster nowadays and you can't just sit in your base and macro up and whoever maxes out first basically wins. Now it's all about positioning and who is able to take over map control first and who is able to multi task the best. I find playing PP these days is the best way to get better in any aspect of SC as it requires microing, macroing, keeping on top of how you spend your resources, scouting the other opponent to see if they are going mass gates or have doubled early. There is just a lot to take in while playing PP and it's one of the best games to get yourself warmed up in because it is such a fast paced game. But as times and strategies have always changed and players have always adapted so it's hard to say for certain that the players now would be way better then the players in past without actually playing against them. In the statements that you've made though it sounds like it's pretty obvious that it would be the case but you do never know as unfortunately that will probably never happen.

Offline TwentyEight

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Re: Old Players versus New Players (PPvPP)
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2013, 10:48:29 PM »
I agree, times change. But I believe you should  distinguish between 'an older player' and 'an older top player'. The top players that came up with most of the strats back then had great gamesense and therefore I think they would adapt perfectly to the gameplay now. As a matter of fact i think they would be better than the current top players if they still played. They were the ones that laid the foundation of FPM, they had that potential.


Offline xS.Ryoji

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Re: Old Players versus New Players (PPvPP)
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2013, 12:14:30 AM »
Good discussion. In a sense I agree with what you said that the game is a lot faster nowadays and you can't just sit in your base and macro up and whoever maxes out first basically wins. Now it's all about positioning and who is able to take over map control first and who is able to multi task the best. I find playing PP these days is the best way to get better in any aspect of SC as it requires microing, macroing, keeping on top of how you spend your resources, scouting the other opponent to see if they are going mass gates or have doubled early. There is just a lot to take in while playing PP and it's one of the best games to get yourself warmed up in because it is such a fast paced game. But as times and strategies have always changed and players have always adapted so it's hard to say for certain that the players now would be way better then the players in past without actually playing against them. In the statements that you've made though it sounds like it's pretty obvious that it would be the case but you do never know as unfortunately that will probably never happen.

Players do adapt, but not all of the players that are good now were good way back in the day and vice versa. Some players have the ability to adapt to a faster play style (I mean literally faster, like APM) because they simply aren't good enough. At the same time, there are definitely players that used to be good that would definitely be capable of being top players now. If you've ever seen the PP replays on SCD that were posted years ago you can see that it's a much more dumbed down version of how people play now. I feel like I've been one of the top PP players for a while, and even looking at my own replays from 2008 and 2007 makes me cringe. There are lots of errors from an execution standpoint and even more from a strategic point of view. I think to argue that the skill of top players now isn't better than the skill of past top players is foolish. I will concede though that it isn't fair to try to say definitively that "Player X is better than Player Y because X still plays and Y doesn't." Making that statement completely discredits the old school player and just assumes that they couldn't learn and adapt. I do think that in most cases if you compare the prime of an old school top player to the prime of a current or much more recent top player that it's fairly obvious who the better player is. I still have a handful of replays that I've downloaded from SCD and FGT 2, and I'm pretty sure a good deal of them aren't corrupt.

I agree, times change. But I believe you should  distinguish between 'an older player' and 'an older top player'. The top players that came up with most of the strats back then had great gamesense and therefore I think they would adapt perfectly to the gameplay now. As a matter of fact i think they would be better than the current top players if they still played. They were the ones that laid the foundation of FPM, they had that potential.

When I said "older player" I was referring to "older top players." Again, I think some would adapt and some wouldn't. The skill level has been raised and so naturally some people will get weeded out cause they're not good enough. Even though those guys laid the foundation for a lot of the strats we use today there are players now that have done a lot to change how people play. For PP the game has definitely gotten more complex over the years. Many of the concepts that are in PP now didn't even exist by the end of FGT 2 (often considered the most competitive time period for PP). Older players may have laid the foundation, but it was newer players that took it to an even more advanced level. Whether or not one of those is more impressive or difficult to do, I don't know, but newer players deserve at least some credit for coming up with new ideas and strategies. If people were to be playing this game 10 years from now they'd look back and say that players from right now "laid the foundation" for the way they play.

Offline uNi-DreaM

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Re: Old Players versus New Players (PPvPP)
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2013, 02:10:24 AM »
As an "older top player" I think the new strategies were relatively easy to catch up to but also so much has changed in the game as I'm sure you could all agree. Speed being number one factor. I'd have to say catching up to what is being used today could pose as a challenge for people who left for an extended period of time and came back to the game as I have also witnessed. And lastly I should point although I laughed when Ryoji talked about watching his older replays; I'll have to admit that even cringing at the sight of them, he likely did well in the replays too. They were a more bulky build time and people took extra time fast mass, I think a lot has been learned about the game over the years such as unit trajectories, faster builds, better defenses and offenses. If you were an older top 3 player and you came back today to reclaim your throne, you might have some things to think about first.

Offline xp-night

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Re: Old Players versus New Players (PPvPP)
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2013, 03:04:41 AM »
Players now r way better than players back then. back then u had like 10 "top" players and would only lose to each other and never ever lose to average ppl at all or maybe very rarely but now if u get caught slacking off/not trying an average player could ez'ly win. In ppvpp ppl now wouldn't even have fun playing the ppl back then. PPl like beef/heli/lost_hell who ruled fgt wouldn't stand a shot in hell

Offline Dano

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Re: Old Players versus New Players (PPvPP)
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2013, 09:07:45 AM »
let me summon this up.
New age, better thinking, smarter moves, faster strats
][~][-~>

Offline koN

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Re: Old Players versus New Players (PPvPP)
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2013, 07:04:23 PM »
I would be really interested in seeing those old replays as they are way before my time of playing SC

Offline xS.Ryoji

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Re: Old Players versus New Players (PPvPP)
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2013, 08:45:23 PM »
I would be really interested in seeing those old replays as they are way before my time of playing SC


Offline Machines.

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Re: Old Players versus New Players (PPvPP)
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2013, 08:53:18 PM »
Thanks. :)

Offline koN

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Re: Old Players versus New Players (PPvPP)
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2013, 09:47:29 PM »
Definitely not the caliber of games that are played today that's for sure. Much slower paced and not a single player has a high enough apm to keep up with the speed of play in todays PP.

Offline Machines.

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Re: Old Players versus New Players (PPvPP)
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2013, 10:11:23 PM »
I see a theme in the games. Lack of probes being hotkeyed and moved.
I also noticed a double or even triple nexus with the toss only 4-5 gates + forge.
I did not really see a pylon beside minerals to protect probes.

There are some constant themes I see from them and currently today. Map control (take double/tripple/tech).

If it was old school vs new school. New school would win. I think it'll be from mechanics and more of an understanding.

Offline xp-night

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Re: Old Players versus New Players (PPvPP)
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2013, 01:00:59 AM »
You don't need a high apm to keep up with the players today. mine is only around 170 average and I remember partnering Rahul for pp games and beating everyone  constantly (more wins than losses vs "top" players) and he sometimes had an apm of like 120

Offline Dano

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Re: Old Players versus New Players (PPvPP)
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2013, 02:37:20 PM »
when ur talking about apm, just look at beef?  correct me if im wrong but wasnt it max like 130 ?  -_-
and ryoji, u got more reps like of vgt good old Days?
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Offline xS.Ryoji

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Re: Old Players versus New Players (PPvPP)
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2013, 07:35:47 PM »
It depends how far back you're talking about. I have pretty much anything up until about 2008.

Offline dirl

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Re: Old Players versus New Players (PPvPP)
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2013, 04:34:50 AM »
Do those replays you posted work with the current version of SC Ryoji? I don't have time to watch them right now but I'm surprised if they do since they're from early 2006 (v1.13e)

If you have more from that era which are corrupt they probably work with old StarCraft.exe's

Offline Machines.

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Re: Old Players versus New Players (PPvPP)
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2013, 04:41:48 AM »
ICCUP Launcher, ADV Loader and Chaos Launcher will fix old/corrupted replays.

Offline dirl

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Re: Old Players versus New Players (PPvPP)
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2013, 04:45:36 AM »
ICCUP Launcher, ADV Loader and Chaos Launcher will fix old/corrupted replays.
I believe that's incorrect, unless there is a plugin I'm unaware of

Offline Machines.

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Re: Old Players versus New Players (PPvPP)
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2013, 04:46:46 AM »
They all come with the fix rep plugin.

Offline dirl

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Re: Old Players versus New Players (PPvPP)
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2013, 04:50:42 AM »
They all come with the fix rep plugin.
You're thinking of Python_Max's RepFix, which only fixes one bug that I'm aware of. It has nothing to do with version compatibility.

Offline Machines.

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Re: Old Players versus New Players (PPvPP)
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2013, 04:52:33 AM »
I was able to watch all the replays Ryoji posted with ADV, Chaos, and ICCUP.

Offline dirl

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Re: Old Players versus New Players (PPvPP)
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2013, 05:03:57 AM »
I was able to watch all the replays Ryoji posted with ADV, Chaos, and ICCUP.
Well that answers the question I asked him, but it's most likely that the data in those replays just happen to be compatible with v1.16.1, which means they will work without a loader.

Offline Dano

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Re: Old Players versus New Players (PPvPP)
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2013, 07:00:13 AM »
Strange i cant see ther reps, it says...  the rep is still being distrubuted, what does that mean?
][~][-~>

Offline Machines.

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Re: Old Players versus New Players (PPvPP)
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2013, 07:01:54 AM »
Strange i cant see ther reps, it says...  the rep is still being distrubuted, what does that mean?
Are you trying to download it from UGL?

Offline Dano

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Re: Old Players versus New Players (PPvPP)
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2013, 07:07:42 AM »
yes
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